Article 21545 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.ust.hk!ustsu6.ust.hk!schmidt From: schmidt@uxmail.ust.hk (DR. ROY SCHMIDT) Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Followup-To: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Date: 23 Oct 1995 08:33:54 GMT Organization: The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology Lines: 65 Message-ID: <46fk1i$9f4@news.ust.hk> References: <46enrd$6g7@nntp4.u.washington.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: ustsu6.ust.hk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.u.washington.edu rec.games.go:21545 rec.games.backgammon:9969 rec.games.chess.politics:702 Jared Roach (roach@u.washington.edu) wrote: : Copyrighting Game Records : This subject has been raised before. I remember walking away with : no definite impressions, and no data Well, I for one have repeatedly pointed out that Chess and Go game records are not copyrightable. There is a quirky practice in Japan, whereby professionals consider their tournament games as "private performances", but it is obvious that common practice in Japan disregards this claim, as the game scores are repeated, reprinted, and reanalyzed many times over without any further compensation to the players. [...] : The[ lawyers] knew of no litigation involving game records, nor of any : specific legislation, and said therefore the issue must be decided by : analogy, barring a sucessful search for precedent, which might take : considerable time and effort. They felt pretty confident, however, that : game records were NOT copyrightable, and that the appropriate analogy : would be "the recording of a historical event." This is exactly what all of us responding to this thread have said before, though for some reason our comments have been disregarded. It seems that in the case of chess scores in particular, there have been some cases in England involving Staunton and others, which would set precedent in common law. If memory serves me, there was also an attempt by R.J.Fischer to claim copyright over his game scores, but I am not sure if that case made it court. : If anyone knows of any litigation involving game records from Go : or Chess or Backgammon or some such game, I would love to know. If : anyone knows of any copyright laws from other coutries that might lead to : different conclusions on the copyrightability of game records, I would : love to haer about these as well. But in the end, it comes down to this. IF the game scores were copyrightable, the copyright would belong to the creators, that is, the two players involved in the game. For some other entity, such as I-Net in the case of IGS, to make a superior claim to the copyright, they would have to obtain a written, signed release from the players assigning the copyright to I-Net. So the notices, etc., put up by IGS admins concerning their claim of copyright over IGS game scores are completely groundless. However, if they wished to prevent any players from trying to claim copyright over a game score or to ask for a fee in order to distribute (real time or otherwise) their "performance", then they should ask each IGS registrant, as part of the registration process, to print out, sign, and mail to them a short statement assigning copyright ownership of any games played on IGS to I-Net. Of course, this request might trouble you, because there would be no guarantee that such a release might come back to haunt everyone later in the form of "pay-per-view" professional matches on IGS. Then, too, one could go ahead and sign such a release in confidence that it could not be enforced since the game score is not copyrightable in the first place :). Let's all hope that IGS is not caught up in this sort of legal mess. No harm has been done to date, so there is no need to give the lawyers a crack at this thrilling, fertile field of international copyright law :). -- Roy Schmidt schmidt@uxmail.ust.hk | **This space for rent** The University of Science and Technology | **Inquire Within** Clearwater Bay, HONG KONG | http://www.bi.ust.hk/~schmidt/index.html Article 21547 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!uw-beaver!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!abcd.youcom!Nick From: Nick Wedd Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Date: Mon, 23 Oct 1995 12:17:08 +0100 Organization: wcc Lines: 15 Distribution: world Message-ID: References: <46enrd$6g7@nntp4.u.washington.edu> <46fk1i$9f4@news.ust.hk> NNTP-Posting-Host: maproom.demon.co.uk X-NNTP-Posting-Host: maproom.demon.co.uk MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Newsreader: Turnpike Version 1.08 <2JQI4ZxDiDMfZB9bE0IoRSjEWs> Xref: news.u.washington.edu rec.games.go:21547 rec.games.backgammon:9972 rec.games.chess.politics:705 My own two pence worth: I don't think anyone "knows" whether game records are subject to copyright. The only way to find out is via law courts. And everyone knows that if this were tried, the only guarantee is that the lawyers wold collect millions of dollars. Therefore, instead of pursuing it in court, there is a "gentleman's agreement" on the subject. Unfortunately, it is not the same agreement everywhere. In Europe, it says that they ARE NOT subject to copyright. In Japan, it says that they ARE subject to copyright. I don't know what it says in the U.S. -- Nick Wedd Nick@maproom.demon.co.uk 72133.3621@compuserve.com Article 21658 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!europa.chnt.gtegsc.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news-e1a.megaweb.com!newstf01.news.aol.com!newsbf02.news.aol.com!not-for-mail From: vanupp@aol.com (VanUpp) Newsgroups: rec.games.go Subject: Annotated Games vs. Unannotated Games Date: 26 Oct 1995 17:04:55 -0400 Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364) Lines: 120 Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com Message-ID: <46ot5n$fba@newsbf02.news.aol.com> Reply-To: vanupp@aol.com (VanUpp) NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com Annotated Chess Games vs. Unannotated Games By Sam Sloan Somebody has posted a question as to why there are so many unannotated games in the Internet, but virtually no annotated games. There are several reasons why you can expect almost never to see annotated games posted on the Internet. The first and foremost concerns copyright problems. The law is well established that chess games or moves cannot be copyrighted. However, any notes or comments written about a game are protected by international copyright law. As a result, if you see two grandmasters playing a game, you can stand by their board, write down their moves, and later publish and sell the moves you have watched them play, without paying them a dime. The grandmasters may not like this and indeed have often complained about this, but that is the law. This law is not just for chess. It applies to all historical and sporting events of any kind. (By the way, in Japan, the situation is different. In Japan, the players of games such as shogi and chess own the rights to their own games. Consequently, the newspapers must pay for the rights to publish their games. This explains the fact that in Japan, most go and shogi tournaments are sponsored by newspapers. By putting up the money to sponsor a tournament, the newspaper insures that only it, and not some rival newspaper, has the right to publish the games of that tournament. This also in part explains the fact that the top go and shogi players in Japan become quite wealthy and in some cases become millionaires, whereas, in the West, many chess masters suffer in poverty or else make the supreme sacrifice and go out and get a job.) Because grandmasters are trying their best to make a living from chess, they expect to be paid for annotating their games. This means that if somebody copies an annotated game out of Chess Life magazine for example, puts that game on disk and sells or distributes it, without paying the grandmaster who wrote the notes, the distributor might be in violation of international copyright laws. This is one of the most complicated areas of law. There are many exceptions. There is, for example, the doctrine of "fair use". "Fair Use" means that, for example, a book reviewer may quote a few passages from a book that he is reviewing in order to illustrate the literary style of the book, without violating copyright laws. However, if he publishes one or two chapters of the book, that might go beyond "fair use". Exactly where the line is drawn is something for the courts to decide. Another problem is that, as a general rule, copyrights expire 50 years after the death of the author. This means that you cannot publish the annotations of former World Champion Alexander Alekhine, unless you have the permission of his heirs (if he had any), because Alekhine died less than 50 years ago, in 1946. However, next year, after the 50 years will have passed, anybody be able to publish annotations written by Alekhine. This explains the fact that, a few years ago, new editions of "My System" by Nimzovich came out. More than 50 years had just passed since Nimzovich had died. (Also, Nimzovich had left no heirs, an important consideration, since there was nobody left to bring a lawsuit.) However, the vast majority of published chess notes were written by somebody who is either still alive or else who died less than 50 years ago. Of course, it is possible that some of the authors of these notes might have no objection to having them posted on the Internet without receiving payment. However, most chess database enthusiasts are not going to take the time or the trouble to search out the author of the notes and obtain his or her permission. As a result, they just immediately strip out any notes or comments that they happen to receive on any games they get. Thus, even games which had notes originally, will not have them any more by the time they are posted on the Internet. There are still other reasons why games with notes are not posted on the Internet. It so happens that I have been entering around 30-50 games per day lately on my chess databases. I have found that it takes me an average of less than 5 minutes to enter an unannotated chess game, but a game with notes requires more than 30 minutes of my time, depending on how deep or extensive the notes are. Thus, I can enter more than 6 unannotated games in the same length of time that it takes me to enter one annotated game. Also, there are not that many annotated games out there. If you take all of the great collections of annotated games, including games with notes by Alekhine, Botvinnik, Fischer and so on, plus all of the annotated games published in Chess Life magazine and in all of the other chess magazines worldwide, and add them all together, you probably still will have only a few thousand annotated games in the entire history of chess. In contrast, the big chess database collectors and vendors, such as Eric Schiller and Inside Chess, are selling 400,000 to 500,000 games on disk (unannotated, of course). I am well aware that the vast majority of members of the chess playing public wants games with notes and also with lots of diagrams. No chess publisher has ever made any significant amount of money publishing unannotated games. Nobody wants them. David Levy, who at that time was the world's largest publisher of unannotated games, once told me to stay away from them. The reading and buying public wants notes! What the vast majority of the paying chess public wants to read are not the games at all. What they want are amusing anecdotes about chess players and so on. Most readers are not capable of playing over the games in their heads and it is too much trouble to set up the pieces on the board, so, when they read a chess book, they just read the words; they do not play over the games. Finally, there is the problem of who is going to write these notes. Not many people are interested in reading notes written by relatively weak chess players. In order for notes to have any commercial value, in most cases they must be written by a name chess player who will usually have a rating of at least 2400, if not higher. This person must also have a flair for writing and a good literary style. The notes will generally have to be written in English, as there is not much of a commercial market for notes in other languages. However, among the world's players rated over 2400 (of which there are less than 1000, I believe) hardly any of them can speak more than a few words of English, and most of those who can speak English are not greatly talented or gifted as writers. And most of the few strong chess players who are also gifted writers (Grandmaster Larry Evans comes to mind) are already fully employed. They are certainly not going to spend their valuable time writing notes which are going to be posted for free on the Internet. Sam Sloan Article 21668 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.islandnet.com!usenet From: rook@islandnet.com (Dan Scoones) Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Date: Fri, 27 Oct 1995 00:45:50 GMT Organization: Island Net in Victoria, B.C. Canada Lines: 25 Message-ID: <46p9uv$nr2@sanjuan.islandnet.com> References: <95Oct25.125728edt.902@neuron.ai.toronto.edu> <46nee4$omq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lasqueti.islandnet.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: news.u.washington.edu rec.games.go:21668 rec.games.backgammon:10023 rec.games.chess.politics:763 tomdorsch@aol.com (TOMDORSCH) wrote: > Certainly it has been settled law for a century that scoresheets are >not copyrightable if they contain only the moves of games played in >competitions. The games belong to the organizer, a matter of frustration >to many players. Alekhine, armed with a law degree, litigated this >question for perhaps the last time. Alexander Alekhine, of course, was the World Chess Champion from 1927-1935 and 1937-1946. I'm curious about the source for the information that he actually litigated the copyright question. I'm told that no one has been able to verify that he actually graduated from the Sorbonne with a law degree, as he claimed to have done. Being a longtime chessplayer (but only a recent backgammon player), I find it amazing that there are virtually NO recorded backgammon matches before 1978. By contrast, the earliest recorded game in my chess database was played in 1575! Perhaps in former times the leading backgammon players "solved" the copyright question by simply not recording their games! Cheers, Dan rook@islandnet.com Article 21672 of rec.games.go: Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Path: news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!news.orst.edu!engr.orst.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ix.netcom.com!netcom.com!hmb From: hmb@netcom.com (Hal Bogner) Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Message-ID: Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest) References: <1995Oct24.193208.5109@scala.scala.com> <95Oct25.125728edt.902@neuron.ai.toronto.edu> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 1995 23:47:22 GMT Lines: 51 Sender: hmb@netcom.netcom.com Xref: news.u.washington.edu rec.games.go:21672 rec.games.backgammon:10026 rec.games.chess.politics:764 In article <95Oct25.125728edt.902@neuron.ai.toronto.edu> radford@cs.toronto.edu (Radford Neal) writes: >In article <1995Oct24.193208.5109@scala.scala.com>, >Randell Jesup wrote: > >> It's more than a gentleman's agreement, it's law. You cannot copyright >>a fact. Commentary, specific collections of facts, analysis, descriptive >>recounting of the facts can all be copyrighted, but not the root fact itself. >>So, the moves in a game (at least one based on finite rules) are a fact and >>not copyrightable... > >So, if I go to a musical performance, I can report the "facts" about >what notes the musicians played without fear of violating copyright? >I don't think so. Not if the composer of the music holds a copyright. > >It may well be that Go games are not copyrightable. But if so, it is >not because a game record is just a "recounting of facts". The argument >is clearly circular, since it obviously applies only to facts that do >not constitute an expression of a copyrighted work. > >But I tire of pointing this out. Believe what you please... > > Radford Neal Dear Radford, For better or worse, the courts, or the law, or whatever you want to call it, make a major distinction between sporting/competitive events, which are the result of a "collision" of opposing intellects or forces, and musical and performed presentations, which are considered to be the result of a creative process that is either individual or collaborative. Thus, musicians and actors are deemed to work together in creating; sportsman and gamers produce their games through opposing one another. The first is recognized as creation by the law, and is protected; the second is not. Maybe that is too bad for us, and maybe not...but that is how it appears to be. I am sorry you are getting tired, though! :-) Best, Hal Bogner Chess Master Software Developer "The grass ain"t greener, The wine ain"t sweeter, Either side of the hill" - R. Hunter Article 21756 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!news.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!news.iij.ad.jp!wnoc-tyo-news!spinnews!spin-hsd0-tky!flash.cyber.ad.jp!fca!sosnoski From: sosnoski%tuttle@fca.cyber.ad.jp (Daniel L. Sosnoski) Reply-To: sosnoski%tuttle@fca.cyber.ad.jp Newsgroups: rec.games.go Distribution: world Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Date: 30 Oct 1995 06:57:57 GMT Message-ID: <1558511582.197183022@fca.cyber.ad.jp> Organization: CTI Tokyo Lines: 56 In article <46fk1i$9f4@news.ust.hk>, schmidt@uxmail.ust.hk (DR. ROY SCHMIDT) wrote: > Well, I for one have repeatedly pointed out that Chess and Go game records > are not copyrightable. There is a quirky practice in Japan, whereby > professionals consider their tournament games as "private performances", > but it is obvious that common practice in Japan disregards this claim, > as the game scores are repeated, reprinted, and reanalyzed many times over > without any further compensation to the players. Yes, as a Japan resident I see this practice uniformly. Yet, as with most things in Japan, the issues are not subject to a single blanket rule, but rather need to be examined on a case-by-case basis. For example, newspaper-sponsored games first appear in the sponsoring-paper's morning or evening editions. Important match results make it to the late night TV news. The game record, once published, appears to be public domain and is not copyrighted, although any comentary on a game is so protected. Bear in mind that a published *diagram* of a game is copyrighted. The user must re-draw or re-create the original diagram. I do not not know what, if any, protection might extend to published Go problems, or tsume-go. Some problems are famous and public domain. Others, especially those crafted by a professional for a specific, recent work, may well be protected. Does anyone have an answer to this question? The "private perfomances" referred to by Dr. Schmidt are, I believe, actually four separate issues. One: Televised Go matches. These are copyrighted just as any broadcast is. Two: Match viewing. In these cases, professionals offer live commentary on a large board set up before an audience in an auditorium. Tickets are expensive and players receive part of the proceeds. Three: Match photos. Photographs of players engaged in a match are expensive and rights to take them are sold to the photographers or sponsoring agencies. Four: Game records. Recent games played between professionals can be obtained by visiting the Nihon Kiin. These were recorded during play, and they sell a week's worth of copies for about 100 yen apiece. These are games that never make it to the yearbook, or magazines. Some comic books (manga), men's and women's weeklies also print game records, and I assume these were purchased for use (the latter come with professional commentary which may have been the purchased item). From the above, we can generalize that a professional expects to be paid for playing and is less concerned with copyright per se and is more of a mind to receive a payment for usage of a game recording upon its *first release* into the public domain. After that initial release, the matter becomes, in my opinion, less urgent. When in doubt, if you are thinking of re-publishing a Nihon-Kiin sposored game, I'd recommend contacting the overseas department of the Nihon-Kiin to check the question of permission. The people there are extremely friendly and easy to deal with, and most speak some English. Seeing as game recordings are sold for the equivalent of a dollar apiece, I doubt that a modest permission fee would ever be an obstacle to a potential publisher, and the goodwill and established business relationship with the Nihon-Kiin could have tremendous benefits. DLS Article 21830 of rec.games.go: Path: news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news.oz.net!news.sprintlink.net!howland.reston.ans.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon.jsc.nasa.gov!ames!hpg30a.csc.cuhk.hk!news.ust.hk!ustsu3.ust.hk!schmidt From: schmidt@uxmail.ust.hk (DR. ROY SCHMIDT) Newsgroups: rec.games.go,rec.games.backgammon,rec.games.chess.politics Subject: Re: Copyrighting Game Records Date: 2 Nov 1995 09:34:31 GMT Organization: The Hong Kong University of Science and Technology Lines: 43 Message-ID: <47a3b7$hq5@news.ust.hk> References: <95Oct25.125728edt.902@neuron.ai.toronto.edu> <46nee4$omq@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4750av$hrj@osiris.wu-wien.ac.at> NNTP-Posting-Host: ustsu3.ust.hk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: news.u.washington.edu rec.games.go:21830 rec.games.backgammon:10116 rec.games.chess.politics:810 Martin Unger (h8150875@idefix.wu-wien.ac.at) wrote: : TOMDORSCH (tomdorsch@aol.com) wrote: : : Certainly it has been settled law for a century that scoresheets are : : not copyrightable if they contain only the moves of games played in : : competitions. The games belong to the organizer, a matter of frustration : ---------------------------------- : : to many players. Alekhine, armed with a law degree, litigated this : : question for perhaps the last time. : : : : Regards, Tom Dorsch : I do not understand this sort of argumentation: the games are : not copyrightable but they belong to the organizer (of the tournament) ? : How can they belong to anybody if they are not copyrightable? What Tom meant was that the *scoresheets* belong to the organizer (if the organizer provides the sheets on which to record the moves). This gives the organizer a "first crack" at publishing a collection of games from the event. It does not give the organizer any other special rights. : I read somewhere that in Japan the Go masters hold the copyright : to their games and that therefore the newspapers sonsor the Go : tournaments (to be allowed to print the games) and thus japanese : Go professionals make a decent living out of Go. The newspapers own the scoresheets, so they get first chance to publish. They also copyright the published diagram of the game. The go pros make their decent living by winning prizes, making public appearances, and giving lessons (plus books, of course). : I think a similar regulation with chess games would benefit the : chess masters the world over. The U.S. copyright laws surely benefit : the software industry, because they protect intelectual property : and thus make investment in intelectual research feasible. Oh, mighty US laws, that beget US lawyers, we bow to thee! (But don't try to enforce US law in China!) -- Roy Schmidt schmidt@uxmail.ust.hk | **This space for rent** The University of Science and Technology | **Inquire Within** Clearwater Bay, HONG KONG | http://www.bi.ust.hk/~schmidt/index.html